Well, this is it- your final blog post of this class! Make it a good one! Tell us not only what you thought of Byron's short play, but Romantic aspects and parallels to other texts, characters, motifs, etc. that your sagacious mind observed.
5 comments:
Anonymous
said...
What a hypocritical crybaby!!! He wines all the time. He never had the power to kill himself and had to beg for someone else to do it for him. It is ironic that Manfred thinks he is alone without his lost love (technically is as she might be his anima) but when he is dying there are many people with him and people who are trying to save him. The Hunter is also with him when he wants to fling himself off the cliff. There were so many parallels to other Romantic Books and poems. I think that there were three main connections: Manfred and Faust, Manfred and Frankenstein and Manfred and Wuthering Heights. The obvious connections with Manfred and Faust are the want for knowledge and settings and lessons that are learned or told. “Philosophy and science, and the springs of wonder, and the wisdom of the world, I have essayed, and in my mind there is a power to make these subject to itself – but they avail not: I have had my foes, and none have baffled, many have fallen before me” (13-20 Act I Scene I) The knowledge that couldn’t be attained and the “springs of wonder” are really strong connection that I see to Faust. In Faust, Mephistopheles tells Faust that it was Faust who wanted the help and who created the destruction and not Meph. In Manfred a spirit also tells something like this to Manfred. “Reluctant mortal! Is this the magian who would so pervade the world invisible, and make himself almost our equal? Can it be that thou art thus in love with life? The very life which made thee wretched!” (105-110 Act III Scene IV) This also shows a little of the hypocritical side of Manfred. Manfred I see as compared to the monster from Frankenstein. When he is up on the cliff wanting to kill himself, it is very similar to when Frankenstein awakes on the mountain. Manfred and Victor Frankenstein both posses this false isolation form their natural place in the world. This is why they flock to the unknown. “The grave hath not changed thee more than I am changed for thee” (120-121 Act II Scene IV) This definitely reminded me of Wuthering Height and that no matter that one part of Manfred or Heathcliff is dead they are still together either in their anima/animus connections or that neither really lives while the other is dead. One main connection to themes of Romanticism that I saw was the everyday and the exotic. Manfred with the qualities of the Byronic hero (dislike of social rank) I see as escaping from the everyday to embrace the exotic. He embraces it in life and in the pursuit of death. The exotic is in the philosophy and science learning and also the nature. When Manfred stands on the cliff ready to kill himself everything is exaggerated and personified. The mist is not only on the top of this cliff but it is also in his mind. Finally I loved this course. It had a lot of fun stuff and I definitely learned a lot. From now on I am always going to look at a book or poem or movie, song, piece of art in a romantic view. Kate
Oh Manny where to begin? First off this was very Romantic play, and there were different aspects all over the place which made it a great play to read at the end of this course because it really brought some of the main ideas together. However, it was a little too much like some of the other Romantic pieces that we have read especially Faust and Frankenstein. Its quite easy to see how people that that he copied Faust even though he claims to have not even read it there are just too many simialrities. Theres the summoning of spirits, the butler/friend that appears, the "great festival" which reminded me of Walpurgis Night, and thats just skimming the surface. Also i hope im not wrong in saying that Faust himself was a sort of Byronic hero and the two characters have many similarities, like how they both tried to kill themselves and how they both loose their true love, and especially their endless search for knowledge. In all three of these works there is alot of nature, which sets the Romantic bells a'ringing in my head. Faust, Victor, the monster, and Manfred spend alot of time in nature. one of the most Romantic parts of this play, in my opinion, was when Manfred was sittingof the cliff and really questioning his own mortality and playing with the idea of death, and i think it was important that this took place in nature because of the whole Romantic idea of how we come from nature and then after death we return to it. Also another connection that can be made between all three of the books is the thirst of knowledge that all the main characters had and the desire to learn everything they could and even then they wouldnt be satisfied. This idea of learning and books can be traced all over Romantic works not just in these works but also in others such as the Tempest, and the symbol of books is very Romantic in itself. I was not surprised at all to find connections between Manfred and Frankenstein. The Shellys and Byron were good friends and Byron was there when Mary was developing the idea of Frankenstein, and clearly thought it was a great concept. However, these connections are not as prominant as those with Faust and the main thing that I saw was how Manfred and Victor both thought they were isolated from their society and how they were both loners, perhaps both Byronic heros, and overall how Victor's character was alot like that of Manfred. Overall i thouroly enjoyed the play and i thought it was a great way to end the year. Also id like to say, in defense of Manfred, that he wasnt that bad of a guy. Sure he had issues and he looked on the dark side of things alot but it seems that hes getting alot of hate from my female class mates. May i remind you of Pride and Prejudice well that was whining! Manfred has real problems like his love died; he isnt complaining about how Mr. Darcy didnt ask him to dance at the ball. (Ms Coppens maybe you shouldnt share that last thought with the class it is 9 vs 1 now and i dont want to get beaten up)
Alright... I'm not sure whether to be ridiculously annoyed by Manfred or to approve of his final actions. I'm leaning towards the approve side (though he did annoy me for most of the play) because he accepted his responsibility and realized it was not up to other beings to punish him but his responsibility alone. I really enjoyed all the romantic elements and parallels, especially in so short of a play. The best romantic elements came in the final scene when Manfred is discussing nature (line 3-ish), solitude, leaning away from social norms (the church), the immortality of the mind (line 130-ish), and of course the supernatural (spirits!). Other especially romantic aspects were the discussion of the sun (III, II) and moon (III, IV), the permeating idea of the supernatural, and the desire for knowledge (especially of the spirit world). The setting of the play also makes it thoroughly romantic (and also very reminiscent of both Faust and Frankenstein). Of course, parallels fall between Manfred and the other romantic texts we've read this year (but we already knew that). To point out some examples we haven't talked about in class yet: III, iv: the idea of the spirit and the abbot trying to claim Manfred is reminiscent of the wager between Mephistopheles and God to claim the soul of Faust. It can also be argued that Manfred's decision to die on his own is similar to the way Faust ends up (not really on either side of the bargain). III, iv: the idea of the mind being immortal (line 129) is also a very faustian concept, as well as a frankensteinian concept. The mind and the importance of knowledge are deeply rooted in faust while the idea of an immortal mind and soul was a result of discussion dealing with frankenstein. III, iv: Manfred's final monologue (line 124-142) shows a profound change that has come over him in deciding to take responsibility for his mistakes and take his death upon himself. This change recalls how Faust questioned his allegiance to Mephistopheles. Manfred's destruction of his love is another Faustian element, similar to Faust's treatment of 'marge'. III, i, 125-135: Manfred discusses how hes fine alone but deadly when paired with others. This could relate to either Faust or Frankenstein - Faust: the idea that faust destroyed marge and sold himself to the devil - Frankenstein: secludes himself later in life as punishment for creating the monster. Many other small examples of romantic elements and texts present themselves in this quintessential final text of our class! -Victoria
As a whole, I thought this play was pretty interesting. Manfred as a character, on the other hand, reallllly started to annoy me. He's so depressed and angry and whiny that it goes past being easy to relate to and it becomes irritating and does quite the opposite of evoking sympathy from the reader... in my opinion. For example, at the end when he tells the Abbot that "...Have I partaken; and of all these things, / One were enough; then wonder not that I / Am what I am, but that I ever was, / Or, having been, that I am still on earth." That line in particular really bugged me; it felt like he listed the things everyone goes through, and then said it was a wonder he lived through them all. I think the fact that these are the cause of his torture just marks him as a weak character.
But, more generally, some of the elements I managed to pick out in this play were also really cool. The connections to Faust and Frankenstein were pretty evident and I thought it was cool to see how striking the similarities are. For example, the idea of the Promethean spark in Act 1, scene i. Also, Manfred in the watchtower at the end strongly resembles Frankenstein. The devil trying to make a bargain also resembles Faust, which I thought was cool. It was like all three texts connecting at once!
Finally, I noticed a few Romantic aspects that continued to come up, specifically the idea of time and the power of thought, which relates to Keats' poem Mont Blanc. Also, the idea of time and its power tying into nature (also a connection to Keats) through the Witch and the constant mist that seems to appear. For example, when he is talking to the Chamois Hunter, he says, "Think'st thou existence doth depend on time? / It doth; but actions are our epochs." He is saying that time is not nearly as important as our experiences or what we do in life, which is a really powerful idea. Additionally, the sense of the power of the moon and consequently the power of women/the feminine image. In Act 2, scene ii, he is with the Witch (a woman) near a powerful cataract. Intertwined in all the water imagery he references the moon, which is infamously a feminine object, and which also controls the tides and water. Also, at the end, Manuel references the moon that made the mountain glitter, as if the moon gives the mountain all of its power. He references this during his telling of the story of Astarte, which draws a strong connection between this feminine power and that which will ultimately cause his ruin.
Okay okay okay that was a really long post. I'm done!
Jesus Christ you guys all wrote a lot!! My overarching impression is that this play is DEPRESSING. I just think that Manfred has such little human integrity. Like, can't he learn to accept that maybe he isn't perfect, but he isn't the only person on the planet, so he should get over himself and learn to be humble enough to cut himself some slack??? Something I found odd about Manfred's style of depression was that how I've heard that people who try and committ suicide often feel helpless to outside circumstances. On the one hand, Manfred felt tortured by the loss of Astarte. But much of his depression stems from his loneliness in general. Isn't that something he creates inside himeself? And its not like society rejects him, causing his loneliness, for Abbot says "Hath all the energy which would have made / A goodly frame of glorious elemetns, / Had they been wisely mindgled; as it is" (160). It's not like I am totally blaming Manfred for his troubles...after all, (at least in nonfiction people) suicide is a very sad thing and one should not be scorned (by the way, I am essentially consdiering the manner in which Manfred dies suicide, because he accepts his death and wants it). Yet...people did try to reach out to him (Chamois hunter, Abbot) and he pushed them away. As for Romantic aspects, there is so much of nature in here! The imagery was so strong that it became a motif, such is in the case of the "mist" from the mountains, described in Act 2 scene 1: "The mists boil up around the glaciers; clouds / Rise curling fst beneath me, white and sulphury" (85-87). Other nature elements I say repeatedly were the moon (representing femeninity), dust, and worms. Although there were small parts of the play that reminded me of other characters we've read about, Faust was the main character I saw in Manfred other than the Byronic Hero of Heathcliff. The connections are pretty literal-- both hide away in a study for hours on end, holed up in their misery and intense intellectual and emotional thoughts. In fact, this parallel jumped out at me in the lines "night after night, for years, / He hath pursued long vigils in this tower, / Without a witness" (1, Act 3 scene 3). Just to skim breifly some other connections I noticed: Rime of the Ancient Mariner- Abbot trying to preach his religous salvation to Manfred = Mariner telling his story over and over. Ozymandias- "The dead, but sceptred sovereigns, who still rule / Our spirits from their urns" (40, Act 4). Keats' poems about mortality- "Sorrow is knowledge: they who know the most / Must mourn the deepest o'er the fatal truth, / The Tree of Knowledge is not that of Life" (10, Act 1 scene 1). Awww I am going to miss this blog...I must say the creative juices really flow here :) I wish I could type even more but it's rather late!! :)
5 comments:
What a hypocritical crybaby!!! He wines all the time. He never had the power to kill himself and had to beg for someone else to do it for him. It is ironic that Manfred thinks he is alone without his lost love (technically is as she might be his anima) but when he is dying there are many people with him and people who are trying to save him. The Hunter is also with him when he wants to fling himself off the cliff.
There were so many parallels to other Romantic Books and poems. I think that there were three main connections: Manfred and Faust, Manfred and Frankenstein and Manfred and Wuthering Heights.
The obvious connections with Manfred and Faust are the want for knowledge and settings and lessons that are learned or told. “Philosophy and science, and the springs of wonder, and the wisdom of the world, I have essayed, and in my mind there is a power to make these subject to itself – but they avail not: I have had my foes, and none have baffled, many have fallen before me” (13-20 Act I Scene I) The knowledge that couldn’t be attained and the “springs of wonder” are really strong connection that I see to Faust. In Faust, Mephistopheles tells Faust that it was Faust who wanted the help and who created the destruction and not Meph. In Manfred a spirit also tells something like this to Manfred. “Reluctant mortal! Is this the magian who would so pervade the world invisible, and make himself almost our equal? Can it be that thou art thus in love with life? The very life which made thee wretched!” (105-110 Act III Scene IV) This also shows a little of the hypocritical side of Manfred.
Manfred I see as compared to the monster from Frankenstein. When he is up on the cliff wanting to kill himself, it is very similar to when Frankenstein awakes on the mountain. Manfred and Victor Frankenstein both posses this false isolation form their natural place in the world. This is why they flock to the unknown.
“The grave hath not changed thee more than I am changed for thee” (120-121 Act II Scene IV) This definitely reminded me of Wuthering Height and that no matter that one part of Manfred or Heathcliff is dead they are still together either in their anima/animus connections or that neither really lives while the other is dead.
One main connection to themes of Romanticism that I saw was the everyday and the exotic. Manfred with the qualities of the Byronic hero (dislike of social rank) I see as escaping from the everyday to embrace the exotic. He embraces it in life and in the pursuit of death. The exotic is in the philosophy and science learning and also the nature. When Manfred stands on the cliff ready to kill himself everything is exaggerated and personified. The mist is not only on the top of this cliff but it is also in his mind.
Finally I loved this course. It had a lot of fun stuff and I definitely learned a lot. From now on I am always going to look at a book or poem or movie, song, piece of art in a romantic view.
Kate
Oh Manny where to begin? First off this was very Romantic play, and there were different aspects all over the place which made it a great play to read at the end of this course because it really brought some of the main ideas together. However, it was a little too much like some of the other Romantic pieces that we have read especially Faust and Frankenstein.
Its quite easy to see how people that that he copied Faust even though he claims to have not even read it there are just too many simialrities. Theres the summoning of spirits, the butler/friend that appears, the "great festival" which reminded me of Walpurgis Night, and thats just skimming the surface. Also i hope im not wrong in saying that Faust himself was a sort of Byronic hero and the two characters have many similarities, like how they both tried to kill themselves and how they both loose their true love, and especially their endless search for knowledge.
In all three of these works there is alot of nature, which sets the Romantic bells a'ringing in my head. Faust, Victor, the monster, and Manfred spend alot of time in nature. one of the most Romantic parts of this play, in my opinion, was when Manfred was sittingof the cliff and really questioning his own mortality and playing with the idea of death, and i think it was important that this took place in nature because of the whole Romantic idea of how we come from nature and then after death we return to it. Also another connection that can be made between all three of the books is the thirst of knowledge that all the main characters had and the desire to learn everything they could and even then they wouldnt be satisfied. This idea of learning and books can be traced all over Romantic works not just in these works but also in others such as the Tempest, and the symbol of books is very Romantic in itself.
I was not surprised at all to find connections between Manfred and Frankenstein. The Shellys and Byron were good friends and Byron was there when Mary was developing the idea of Frankenstein, and clearly thought it was a great concept. However, these connections are not as prominant as those with Faust and the main thing that I saw was how Manfred and Victor both thought they were isolated from their society and how they were both loners, perhaps both Byronic heros, and overall how Victor's character was alot like that of Manfred.
Overall i thouroly enjoyed the play and i thought it was a great way to end the year. Also id like to say, in defense of Manfred, that he wasnt that bad of a guy. Sure he had issues and he looked on the dark side of things alot but it seems that hes getting alot of hate from my female class mates. May i remind you of Pride and Prejudice well that was whining! Manfred has real problems like his love died; he isnt complaining about how Mr. Darcy didnt ask him to dance at the ball. (Ms Coppens maybe you shouldnt share that last thought with the class it is 9 vs 1 now and i dont want to get beaten up)
Matthew Fitch
Alright... I'm not sure whether to be ridiculously annoyed by Manfred or to approve of his final actions. I'm leaning towards the approve side (though he did annoy me for most of the play) because he accepted his responsibility and realized it was not up to other beings to punish him but his responsibility alone.
I really enjoyed all the romantic elements and parallels, especially in so short of a play. The best romantic elements came in the final scene when Manfred is discussing nature (line 3-ish), solitude, leaning away from social norms (the church), the immortality of the mind (line 130-ish), and of course the supernatural (spirits!). Other especially romantic aspects were the discussion of the sun (III, II) and moon (III, IV), the permeating idea of the supernatural, and the desire for knowledge (especially of the spirit world). The setting of the play also makes it thoroughly romantic (and also very reminiscent of both Faust and Frankenstein).
Of course, parallels fall between Manfred and the other romantic texts we've read this year (but we already knew that). To point out some examples we haven't talked about in class yet:
III, iv: the idea of the spirit and the abbot trying to claim Manfred is reminiscent of the wager between Mephistopheles and God to claim the soul of Faust. It can also be argued that Manfred's decision to die on his own is similar to the way Faust ends up (not really on either side of the bargain).
III, iv: the idea of the mind being immortal (line 129) is also a very faustian concept, as well as a frankensteinian concept. The mind and the importance of knowledge are deeply rooted in faust while the idea of an immortal mind and soul was a result of discussion dealing with frankenstein.
III, iv: Manfred's final monologue (line 124-142) shows a profound change that has come over him in deciding to take responsibility for his mistakes and take his death upon himself. This change recalls how Faust questioned his allegiance to Mephistopheles.
Manfred's destruction of his love is another Faustian element, similar to Faust's treatment of 'marge'.
III, i, 125-135: Manfred discusses how hes fine alone but deadly when paired with others. This could relate to either Faust or Frankenstein - Faust: the idea that faust destroyed marge and sold himself to the devil - Frankenstein: secludes himself later in life as punishment for creating the monster.
Many other small examples of romantic elements and texts present themselves in this quintessential final text of our class!
-Victoria
As a whole, I thought this play was pretty interesting. Manfred as a character, on the other hand, reallllly started to annoy me. He's so depressed and angry and whiny that it goes past being easy to relate to and it becomes irritating and does quite the opposite of evoking sympathy from the reader... in my opinion. For example, at the end when he tells the Abbot that "...Have I partaken; and of all these things, / One were enough; then wonder not that I / Am what I am, but that I ever was, / Or, having been, that I am still on earth." That line in particular really bugged me; it felt like he listed the things everyone goes through, and then said it was a wonder he lived through them all. I think the fact that these are the cause of his torture just marks him as a weak character.
But, more generally, some of the elements I managed to pick out in this play were also really cool. The connections to Faust and Frankenstein were pretty evident and I thought it was cool to see how striking the similarities are. For example, the idea of the Promethean spark in Act 1, scene i. Also, Manfred in the watchtower at the end strongly resembles Frankenstein. The devil trying to make a bargain also resembles Faust, which I thought was cool. It was like all three texts connecting at once!
Finally, I noticed a few Romantic aspects that continued to come up, specifically the idea of time and the power of thought, which relates to Keats' poem Mont Blanc. Also, the idea of time and its power tying into nature (also a connection to Keats) through the Witch and the constant mist that seems to appear. For example, when he is talking to the Chamois Hunter, he says, "Think'st thou existence doth depend on time? / It doth; but actions are our epochs." He is saying that time is not nearly as important as our experiences or what we do in life, which is a really powerful idea. Additionally, the sense of the power of the moon and consequently the power of women/the feminine image. In Act 2, scene ii, he is with the Witch (a woman) near a powerful cataract. Intertwined in all the water imagery he references the moon, which is infamously a feminine object, and which also controls the tides and water. Also, at the end, Manuel references the moon that made the mountain glitter, as if the moon gives the mountain all of its power. He references this during his telling of the story of Astarte, which draws a strong connection between this feminine power and that which will ultimately cause his ruin.
Okay okay okay that was a really long post. I'm done!
-Kayleigh
Jesus Christ you guys all wrote a lot!! My overarching impression is that this play is DEPRESSING. I just think that Manfred has such little human integrity. Like, can't he learn to accept that maybe he isn't perfect, but he isn't the only person on the planet, so he should get over himself and learn to be humble enough to cut himself some slack???
Something I found odd about Manfred's style of depression was that how I've heard that people who try and committ suicide often feel helpless to outside circumstances. On the one hand, Manfred felt tortured by the loss of Astarte. But much of his depression stems from his loneliness in general. Isn't that something he creates inside himeself? And its not like society rejects him, causing his loneliness, for Abbot says "Hath all the energy which would have made / A goodly frame of glorious elemetns, / Had they been wisely mindgled; as it is" (160). It's not like I am totally blaming Manfred for his troubles...after all, (at least in nonfiction people) suicide is a very sad thing and one should not be scorned (by the way, I am essentially consdiering the manner in which Manfred dies suicide, because he accepts his death and wants it). Yet...people did try to reach out to him (Chamois hunter, Abbot) and he pushed them away.
As for Romantic aspects, there is so much of nature in here! The imagery was so strong that it became a motif, such is in the case of the "mist" from the mountains, described in Act 2 scene 1: "The mists boil up around the glaciers; clouds / Rise curling fst beneath me, white and sulphury" (85-87). Other nature elements I say repeatedly were the moon (representing femeninity), dust, and worms.
Although there were small parts of the play that reminded me of other characters we've read about, Faust was the main character I saw in Manfred other than the Byronic Hero of Heathcliff. The connections are pretty literal-- both hide away in a study for hours on end, holed up in their misery and intense intellectual and emotional thoughts. In fact, this parallel jumped out at me in the lines "night after night, for years, / He hath pursued long vigils in this tower, / Without a witness" (1, Act 3 scene 3).
Just to skim breifly some other connections I noticed:
Rime of the Ancient Mariner- Abbot trying to preach his religous salvation to Manfred = Mariner telling his story over and over.
Ozymandias- "The dead, but sceptred sovereigns, who still rule / Our spirits from their urns" (40, Act 4).
Keats' poems about mortality- "Sorrow is knowledge: they who know the most / Must mourn the deepest o'er the fatal truth, / The Tree of Knowledge is not that of Life" (10, Act 1 scene 1).
Awww I am going to miss this blog...I must say the creative juices really flow here :) I wish I could type even more but it's rather late!! :)
-Sarah
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